Unstoppable Transformational Changer with Shilpa Alimchandani

Hi there, you are listening to Unstoppable Mindset, glad you're with us wherever you

happen to be.

Today we get to interview or chat with Shilpa, Alanchandani and I got it right, didn't

Shilpa, and Shilpa has formed her own company, she's worked with other companies,

she's very much involved in the whole concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and we'll

talk about that and chat about that a little bit.

But first, Shilpa, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset.

Thank you, Michael, I'm really happy to be here.

Shilpa lives in Silver Spring, Maryland.

I've been there before, it gets colder in the winter, a little bit colder than it does

here in Victorville in Southern California, but we're up on what's called the High Desert.

So we get down close to zero, a lot of winders, and so we know the cold weather, we don't

get the snow though, but that'll be cold.

Well, thank you for joining us.

Why don't you start if you would by telling us just a little bit about you growing up

or anything like that, things that you think we ought to know about you?

Okay, well, thanks, Michael.

Yeah, I live in Silver Spring, Maryland, now, but this is not where I grew up.

I grew up in the Midwest, in the suburbs of St. Louis, Missouri.

I was actually born in India, but just a few months old when I came here to the US.

So grew up in pretty suburban neighborhood in South Asian families, so kind of navigated

between two worlds, my world at home, which was very much a South Asian, eating Indian

food and speaking Hindi and spreading time with my family and our small community in St.

Louis, and then going to school and being part of a broader world that was really different

than my at home, and I'm the first born in my family.

So as a first born of immigrant parents, you just kind of discovering everything from

myself for the first time and not having much of a guidebook to help me along, but just

sort of figuring it out as I went.

It was a mostly white neighborhood that I grew up in St. Louis, which was very segregated

at the time, black and white, not a lot of people who are anything in between though.

So kind of made my way in school, and I actually went to the University of Missouri,

Columbia for college, and it wasn't until I finished college that I moved out to the East

Coast.

And I've stayed here in the DC metro area since working in lots of different capacities.

And in nonprofit and higher education and government and the private sector, and now as an

independent consultant for the past few years.

So where do you fall on the black and white scale?

I'm neither right, so as someone as South Asian did not kind of fit into the dominant white

majority culture that I was a part of growing up and did not fit into black American

culture either because that's not my heritage.

So it was a really interesting space to navigate, to learn in a culture where race and skin

color plays a big role in your identity development and the opportunities that you have,

you know, it was something that I had to just sort of figure out, where do I fit?

And what's my role in what appears to be kind of an unfair system that we're a part of.

And then as I discovered how unfair things were, the question became, well, how do I change

that?

What's my role being me and my bronze skin, you know, to question the systems that are unfair

and to change things, to be more equitable for everybody?

Do you think it's unfair all over the world, do you think it's more or less unfair here

or what?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, every race is unique and so I don't think like, you know, necessarily what

we experience in the United States is the same as it is in other countries in this hemisphere

or anywhere else in the world.

And I think there are some global themes around power and identity that really can cut

across cultures and countries, you know, human beings are used to kind of creating hierarchies,

you know, and, you know, some people having more authority, more power than others, sometimes

that's based on things like skin color, sometimes, you know, that's based on gender,

sometimes that's based on caste or that's based on tribe or some other ethnic identity.

There are lots of different identities that are used to kind of implement that hierarchical

system, but there are some things that are in common across all of them, right?

About how people in power retain their power, how people without power learn to kind of accept

their circumstances and, you know, and kind of not necessarily push back because when they

do their consequences to that and so that it's like a reinforcing system that we get used

to and we sort of take for granted, well, that's just like how the world is, that's how life

is and it takes a lot of courage to question that and say, well, no, well, it doesn't

have to be that way and we can make things more fair for everybody.

Do you think so that here we, we see more of that than elsewhere in the world, or

you think it just seems that way because we're here.

And probably seems that way because we're here, you know, you know, you know, you're

more in touch with what's happening usually in your own environment and I think for the

United States with as much promise as it has as a country with, you know, ideals around

equality and fairness and justice, there's just a really difficult history that we haven't fully

grappled with that continues to impact people every day and so it is a history of, you know,

genocide of Native peoples, it's a history of enslavement of African peoples, it's a history

of patriarchy where, you know, women haven't had the same access and rights, it's a history

of ableism, you know, a topic of course that you know very well in this podcast deals with in a

really nuanced way where people who don't fit into the norms of, you know, able-bodied, neuro-typical

folks, you know, are marginalized and, you know, LGBTQ plus folks are also marginalized and that's

not unique to the United States, but it is part of something that's part of our culture that we

need to acknowledge in order to change, kind of pretending like it's all in the past and we don't

really need to worry about that anymore, it doesn't help us to make things better moving forward.

If there's a difference in the United States, it is that our country was founded on and we keep

touting the fact that all of us are free and all of us are equal, but in reality, it hasn't

worked that way thus far. Right, that's exactly right. And I think that it's often people from marginalized

groups who really believe most passionately in that promise in those ideals and therefore want to push

to make that a reality. Yeah, and understandably so because we're the ones who tend not to have truly

experienced it. Right, exactly. And so, you know, it's fascinating to me too, Michael, on this topic

of recognizing the inequities and the oppression that exists and what we want to do to change it

is that you would think that if you understand or experience oppression or marginalization,

because of one aspect of your identity, that you would then also have empathy across lots of

different experiences of marginalization. Right. So for example, as a woman, I have experienced

marginalization because of my gender. And so you would hope then that I would be empathetic to,

you know, LGBTQ folks or I would be also empathetic to people with disabilities. And I could translate

my experience of marginalization and say, oh, I want to advocate for others who've experienced

marginalization. But that is, has not necessarily been the case. Right. A lot of times we kind of

only focus on our own experience, the one that's familiar to us and have a harder time seeing

how there are connections across lots of different identities. And there's power in us actually

making those connections instead of, you know, operating in our silos.

Why is that? Why have we not been able to take that leap when we are part of one group,

which clearly is marginalized as opposed to other groups, who are also marginalized, but we think

essentially we're really the only one in town from the standpoint of not translating that.

Yeah. You know, I think it's um, we are as human beings much more aware of when we're kind

of the outsider and things are harder for us than we've experienced adversity that we need to overcome.

But when we're in that insider role, right, in the group that has more power, the dominant group,

it's really easy to not pay attention to that to kind of forget it to take it for granted.

Right. So I can say that, you know, as as a cisgender person, as a heterosexual person,

I have a times in my life kind of taken for granted that I belong to those groups because the

world is sort of set up for me. I can date who I want, Mary, who I want. I don't have to worry

about people looking at me, you know, strangely when I'm with my partner, I don't have to think about

having photographs of my family, you know, on display. These are not things I have to worry about,

just because I'm part of those dominant identity groups, right? And when it comes to my experiences

of marginalization, as a South Asian person, as a Hindu person, living in the United States,

I'm very, like, hyper aware of those, right? Because that's where I have felt left out.

That's where I have felt like I haven't been treated fairly. And so I think

because all of us are like a complex mix of lots of identities, we tend to pay more attention

to the ones where we experience marginalization, and less attention to the ones where we are part

of the dominant group. But we don't translate that to other groups.

Yeah, because again, we can. We have the capacity to do it, but it's more effort, right?

Sure. And it's all about, though, what we know and what we feel, and we don't

tend to take that leap. We're very capable of doing it. But for some reason, we don't recognize

or don't want to recognize that we're part of maybe a bigger group of marginalized or

unconcited people. And I think that's probably really it that we look at ourselves as well.

We are who we are, and we make our own way. But we don't have those other people's problems.

And so we tend to ignore them. Yeah, sometimes it makes us feel better about ourselves. Like,

oh, well, you know, at least we don't have to deal with that. And I think when it comes to like

race and ethnicity in the US context, there's been a conscious effort to divide people of color

from different identity groups. We do have different lived experiences. I don't have the experience of

someone being black of someone being Latinx of someone being indigenous. At the same time,

there are some things in common across not being white, right? And the exclusion and some of the

disadvantages that come with that. But it's to the advantage of the group that's in power, right?

For other marginalized groups to be continuing to sort of fight with one another and not see

what they have in common. Because then that allows a majority group to maintain their power.

Right? So you can keep fighting amongst yourselves, right? And arguing about choose more

oppressed than whom. But it what it does is just allows the people who are in power to keep it.

So it really is incumbent upon us to bridge some of those divides like you were talking about,

like, why can't we extend and see how someone else's experience marginalization in order to change

things? Because that collective action is necessary. Yeah. And that's really it. It's collective

action. Because somehow we need to recognize that the group in power isn't really jeopardized

by other people sharing power or not being so marginalized, but rather is strengthens all of us.

That's what people tend to not perceive. The whole concept of their power and numbers,

there is power and numbers really is just as applicable across the board. But we don't want to

recognize that because we're too focused on the power as opposed to the rest of it. Yeah.

And that that becomes pretty unfortunate. And of course dealing with all of those other

groups, and then you have people with disabilities, which is a very large minority, second,

only to women from a standpoint of what we call minorities, although they're more women than men.

But then within disabilities, you have different kinds of disabilities that different people

have. Right. And that that causes, I think, a lot of times, another issue because

it is more difficult to get all of those groups sometimes to combine together to recognize the

power and numbers of everyone working together. And everyone overcoming the prejudice is about

for about their disabilities or toward other people and their disabilities. Yeah, absolutely.

And to even consider the intersections of our identities, right? So there are people with

disabilities, many different types of disabilities, like you said. And then there are people with

disabilities who are white, there are people with disabilities who are, you know,

identify as cisgender women or cisgender men or non-binary or trans, right? And so when you

kind of look at those combination of identities, it gets even more complex. And it also challenges

us, right? It humbles us, I would say, to acknowledge that, wow, I may really be in touch with

what it's, what the experience of being a person with disability in this country. And but I don't

have the experience, for example, of a person of color in this country or a person of color

with the disability in this country. And that those are different experiences and to appreciate

those differences, right? We don't need to erase those differences in order to understand each other.

While the experiences are different,

what isn't different oftentimes is the fact that we do experience prejudice and discrimination.

And we talk so much about diversity that I think you've pointed out. We don't talk about the

similarities. And we're, we talk about becoming more diverse in that's great. But that becomes

overwhelming at some point. And so how do we bring it back down to, we're all part of the same

thing, really? Well, I think there's kind of a journey that we can, we go on in understanding

difference and understanding identity. At first, we may not be totally aware of some of the

differences around us. And then we might move to a place that feeling polarized around it,

you know, that like us, them dynamic. Yep, there are differences, but we're better than you,

you know, and that kind of a thing. And then we get to a place and what I'm describing here,

broadly, is the intercultural development continuum of framework that's used a lot

in the DEI space. You can come to a place of minimization, which is really focusing on

commonalities. Right? We are human. We have common lived experiences. We can focus on common values.

And let's minimize the differences, right? But that's really not the end of the journey,

because minimizing the differences is times denying the reality of people's different lived

experiences. And it doesn't help us to really change things to make them more fair, where they're

not. So then we move to kind of accepting the differences, not with value judgment, but just

acknowledging them. And then ultimately adapting across those differences, I would take it a step further

that not only are we bridging or adapting across the differences, but that we need to learn to be allies.

Right? So especially if we're in a position of being part of a dominant group, like as I am as

a able-bodied person, what does it look like for me to be an ally for people with disabilities?

And that's a responsibility that I have, right? So if we minimize differences and we just kind

of stay in that place, let's just focus on what we have in common, we don't then have the opportunity

to accept, adapt, and ultimately to come allies. And that's really the journey that we're on.

What I don't generally hear is not so much about what we have in common or recognizing that

we all can be allies, which I absolutely agree with and understand, but we don't get to the point

of recognizing the vast number of similarities that we have. And we don't get to the point of

recognizing that a lot of the so-called differences are not anything other than what we create ourselves.

We do create differences and we need to understand those differences in terms of systems,

right? Like entire systems in our society and the way that, you know, workplaces are set up

and within the way, you know, physical spaces as well as policies or developed. And those

systems are not necessarily designed as fairly as they could be. And so that's when I think

paying attention to differences is really important and not just focusing on similarities, because the

same system is impacting people differently, depending on what identity group they belong to,

and we've got to be able to surface that in order to change it. But we do need to recognize

that a lot of that comes because of the system as opposed to whether there are real differences

or their differences that we create. Yeah, well, I mean, humans create systems, right? And so

they do, right? We can read design systems too. But what happens is a little bit like a

fish and water kind of scenario that we don't really recognize the water that we're swimming in.

You know, it really takes us having to leave the environment and look back at it to be able to say,

like, oh, that's what's going on, right? Most of the time we don't pay attention to those systems.

We just operate within them without thinking about it. And that's my point. And that's that's exactly

it. And so we somehow have to take a step back or a step up maybe as you would describe it

to get out of the water and look at the water and see what we can do to make changes that would

make it better. And that's the leap that I don't generally see us making as a race yet.

Yeah, they're definitely great examples of that in our history and in other parts of the

world as well. Like when, you know, when countries that had been colonized for a number of years,

you know, finally get their freedom when, you know, there's real truth and reconciliation

efforts after a war or a period of conflict. It is, it is possible at something that has happened.

And, and I think, you know, we're kind of in a moment in our culture where people are asking

a lot of these kinds of questions. What's not working in the status quo and the way things are

and what needs to shift the pandemic has really brought those issues front and center,

the movement for racial justice has has done the same. And I think it's actually an exciting

opportunity and exciting moment to be like, oh, people are actually talking about systems now.

Yeah, um, it's, it's interesting, um, Henry Mayer wrote a book called All On Fire,

which is a biography of William Lloyd Garrison. Have you ever read that? I have not.

Okay. So William Lloyd Garrison, you may or may not know, was a very famous abolitionist. And I

think the 1840s, it was a reporter and he got very much involved in the polishing slavery.

And as I said, Henry Mayer was a biographer of his, um, and wrote this book called All On Fire.

And in the book, there is a section where, where Garrison wanted to bring

into the fold some women, the grim case sisters, who were very much involved in women's suffrage.

And he, Garrison said to his people, please contact them. Let's bring them in. And their

response was, but they're not involved in this. They're dealing with women's suffrage. And they're

not interested in this. And Garrison said something very interesting, which was, it's all the same thing.

He took the leap. And he said, it's all the same thing, whether it's suffrage,

whether it's slavery abolition or whatever, abolishment, it's all the same thing. And that's the leap

that we generally don't take any of us on any side. Yeah. I don't know who to credit for this

quote that I've heard many times. But the idea that none of us is free until all of us are free.

Yeah. And interesting and interesting quote and true.

And that's really, you know, I had shared with you my goal that my practice is called

Mook the, and Mook the means liberation or freedom in Sanskrit. And that was really kind of what was

behind, you know, like, I was thinking about, like, why do I do this work? What motivates me?

What is this ultimately about? And to your point of, you know, these experiences, whether it be

suffrage or abolishing slavery, whatever, having some really important things in common,

is that we want to be free. We as humans want to be free. And there are a lot of things that get in our

way. And so that kind of became the heart of my practice is like, what does it look like to work

for that freedom? Mm hmm. Well, let's go back to you personally and so on. So you grew up

I think you have. And that's a good thing. And so how did you get involved in all of this division,

this business of DEI and and and what you do today? What, what got you started down that path?

And what did you do that got you to the point of starting this company?

Yeah. So, you know, certainly growing up in the 80s and 90s in St. Louis,

there really wasn't a DEI field as such. It wasn't like one of those careers that you know about

and and prepare for like, you know, like being an engineer or a doctor or a teacher or something like that.

So it was a kind of a winding, indirect path to get to this place. I knew pretty early on

that I cared about justice that I cared about people understanding each other and bridging differences.

But I didn't know that could be my job. So at first I thought maybe I'll become a lawyer and then,

you know, I could use like legal skills to fight for justice and things like that. I even took

the LSAT and never applied to law school. I was like, I don't really want to be a lawyer. So I

explored a bit. I worked in nonprofit and in higher ed and began to learn that, well, there really

is kind of in the late 90s, early 2000s, like a growing field in educating people about diversity.

And that was kind of new to me. I was excited about that. I wanted to learn more about it.

And early on, it was kind of more focused on representation, right? We need to bring people together

from different backgrounds in workplaces and schools, etc. And then that sort of evolved into,

well, it's not just enough to bring people from different backgrounds together. You need to have

an environment where people feel included, where they feel valued, right? So it kind of evolved from

not just diversity to diversity and inclusion. And I think kind of the more recent iteration

of the field is the E in diversity, equity and inclusion. And the equity piece being really

looking at that systemic part we were just talking about. How are our systems working for us?

Where are their inequities built into those systems? How can those be corrected so that we actually

have a place where people from different backgrounds can feel included and valued and feel treated

fairly and paid fairly for the work that they do, right? So that's when all of those come together.

Of course, there's additions to that as well. Some organizations add accessibility as an aid to that,

you know, some include justice. So it becomes a bit of an alphabet soup, but all with this idea

of differences, valuing differences and treating people fairly at the heart of this work.

That's really what it's about. And as you point out, it's really about equity. I've noticed

and still very seriously maintain the whole concept of diversity is much less of a really good

goal to seek for this traditionally diversity leads out disabilities. In fact, I interviewed

someone a few weeks ago and this person talked about different kinds of diverse groups and listed

a number of things and never once mentioned disabilities. And I asked him about that. I said,

I'm not picking on you, but you didn't include disabilities and he talked about social attitudes.

And he says, well, it includes social attitudes in some way. And my point was no, it doesn't really

because social attitudes are a different animal and don't have anything to do with dealing

with disabilities. Disabilities is a different kind of thing. So it's interesting how

different people approach it. Now, this particular individual was a person who is

involved with another minority group, but still we have to face that. And it makes for a very

interesting situation and it makes for a challenge in life. Yeah, I mean, this one of those places where,

you know, I have privileged as someone who doesn't experience disabilities in my life on a daily basis

and that means for me, like to be an ally, like what we were talking about earlier,

is that I need to educate myself, right? I need to look for those opportunities where I feel like,

well, yeah, sure, this is easy and accessible for me, but it wouldn't be for our friends and colleagues

and people who don't have the same abilities that I do. And what can we do to change that?

That's what the relationship looks like. And I know it can be overwhelming, right? People say,

oh, there's so many, you listed so many things under this umbrella of diversity, like,

how can we possibly, you know, pay attention to all of it? And I actually don't think it's too

hard for us. I think as human beings, we have this amazing capacity for empathy. We have this

capacity to, our minds are malleable. We can continue to learn and grow throughout our lives.

We have to have the will to do it, right? And put the effort in to do it, but it is possible.

It's interesting to look at and one of the things that I think I see, and this is from my perspective,

as a, as a, as a blind person, or let's say a person with a disability, it's, it's interesting

how I think society teaches that all the rest of us are better than persons with disabilities

to a great degree. And I think it's very systemic. And I think to a very large degree, it does

go across all sorts of different lines. But we teach people that, I teach our children, the

disabilities make those people less in ways that it doesn't necessarily apply to other groups,

although the concept and the overall process is the same. It still comes down to

we're in power we're better than they. But it does go across a lot of different lines. And when we

teach people that disabilities are less, that's a problem that somehow we as part of all this

need to overcome. Yeah, it's ultimately my goal to your point. It's dehumanizing. We're dehumanizing

entire groups of people. And sometimes it's like quote unquote well-intentioned, but it's really

more of a pity than it is an understanding of respect and empathy for someone else's experience.

And nobody needs that, right? No. Nobody wants to be felt sorry for her, you know?

Yeah. And I think that that probably is more true when you're dealing with a person with a disability

than a lot of other groups. You won't feel sorry for them. You may distrust them or whatever.

But for disabilities, we feel sorry. Yeah. And that promotes fear. Gosh, we sure wouldn't want

to be like them. Right, because that's the worst thing that could happen, right? So, and it

creates more of that division of I'm not like you and I don't want to be like you, you know? Right.

On the other hand, disability is an equal opportunity kind of a thing. Anyone can join us at any

given time unexpectedly or maybe expectantly. But to use a bad word, expectantly. I don't know.

That's not a word. But anyway, so we have to learn to speak. But still, it is something that

anyone can experience. And we don't try to equalize. So it is a challenge. But again,

let's look at you. What was your career like getting into this? So it wasn't a job that really

existed as such. And then you kind of discovered that maybe it really was. And so you decided not to

be a lawyer, and we won't talk about the legitimacy or efficacy of not being a lawyer, or

the other. No, many lawyer jokes out there. But, but what did you then do? Yeah. So, you know, my

early work was at a nonprofit that no longer exists, but it was the National Multicultural Institute.

And they were kind of doing diversity training for organizations. And it's like the world of

bank and educational institutions and some nonprofits. And so I discovered like, oh, this is

becoming a growing thing that businesses, organizations want education around issues of diversity

and how they can work better together across different. So that was really fascinating to me.

I also got involved in cross-cultural communication. So when I was teaching at American University,

it was in the School of International Service, which has had as a requirement for any international

study's major to take a course on cross-cultural communication, to recognize that, you know,

depending on what culture or part of the world we're from, we really kind of think differently

communicate differently. And it doesn't mean that that thinking or that communication is good or bad,

but it's different. And we really need to appreciate, you know, how some cultures are much more

and some are much less so, right, very indirect. How some cultures were engaged in conflict,

really, you know, emotionally and others are much more emotionally restrained, you know,

and some are much more individualistic, and others being more collectivist. So I started

really studying these issues and realizing that there really was an opportunity to educate people

about some of these cultural differences and identity differences and ultimately power differences

that exist in our societies. So I worked internationally, I worked at the Peace Corps,

and I've traveled with the Peace Corps to different countries to train staff who worked for the

US Peace Corps. I worked for the State Department, and I did leadership development work there

to prepare for and service officers before they go abroad and during their service on how to

lead effectively of those global environments. And then I decided to leave government after a while

and pursue private sector. And there's a lot, like in the private sector, while there are a lot of

organizations that invest heavily in diversity, equity and inclusion, big training programs,

a real focus on how to make their policies and procedures more equitable. So that was really

interesting, you know, to get into that consulting space. First, working for a firm,

or I called Cook Ross, and then three years ago, I went out on my own and started my own practice.

And I love the work. It's challenging, you know, there are some people who are in it for the

right reasons and others may be not as much, so I'm learning a lot. In this field, now 20 plus

years into it, but also feeling quite fulfilled in the work that I do.

So what does Cook Ross do or what did they do? They're a diversity equity and inclusion consulting firm

that they work a lot with the Fortune 500, even Fortune 100 corporate sector. In my independent

consulting practice, I'm doing less kind of corporate work and more work in the NGO sector

with smaller businesses, nonprofit organizations in the like.

What made you decide to go out on your own?

Oh, I had thought about starting my own business many times and really aired on the side of

stability and a stable paycheck for so many years. Until finally, I had some supports in place,

right, talking about systems. I had some supports in place to make it possible for me to go out

on my own. At a partner, we had a study job with health insurance for us and for our two children,

my parents moved closer to where we live, so I had some family support in the area.

And then, you know, decided just to take the leap and have confidence in myself and

what I could offer as a consultant, as a facilitator, to clients and the vast majority of my

work is through word of mouth. I really don't even do much marketing, and I'm very fortunate

to be in that role, but it also just showed me like, oh, you might have maybe you could have done

the sooner, but it took me a while to feel like I had the support and the confidence to do that.

But even though you're on your own, do you still have a relationship or do any work with

Cook Ross, or do you still teach or any other things? Other consulting firms, small consulting

firms, so I subcontract for them. And in addition to my consulting practice, I became a certified

coach. I went through a coaching program and became an international coaching Federation certified coach.

So I work one on one with people, largely women of color leaders who are, you know, in

periods of transition or growth in their lives and in their careers to help guide them through

that process and help them really tap into all of the strength that they have and the wisdom that

they have within themselves. So I have a lot of variety in the work that I do, which I really enjoy.

So you, you keep connections open and that's always a good thing of course.

Indeed. So what kind of changes have you seen in the whole field of diversity, equity,

inclusion and such over the years? You know, there have been a lot of changes. I think, you know,

I mentioned early on, there was a lot of focus on representation. I think a big, and then, you know,

looking at the culture and how can we be more inclusive? But even in that conversation about

inclusive Michael, there was a bit of teaching people to be like us, right? So there was still

sort of a dominant majority right male, you know, able body, you know, cisgender, heterosexual,

you know, culture. And we invite people who belong to other groups, marginalized identities to

join us, but to kind of be like us, right? And then I saw shift, well, you know, the point

is not to make everybody act like the majority group. The point is to actually create a place where

people with different experiences, different identities can all thrive in the same environment.

That means changing the environment, right? That means actually looking at some of those systems,

looking at the culture and saying, you know, if it's a culture of like everybody goes out for

happy hour after work or they have important conversations on the golf course or whatever, that that

is really fundamentally excluding a lot of people from those informal ways that people hold power

in the organization. So how do we create cultures and systems that are more fair for everyone? I think

now, especially post the murder of George Floyd in 2020 and a real reckoning with the history

of racism in the United States, there's much more attention being paid to some of those systemic

issues with particular regard to race, but also other identity groups. And that's a big shift.

There were a number of years when I worked in this space where people were still like uncomfortable

naming race, they would talk about diversity broadly, talk about all the different things that make

us the rainbow people that we are, but not deal with some of the harder, stickier, messier subjects.

And I think there's more of a willingness to do that now. They won't deal with the words, yeah,

go ahead. Yeah, there's more, so there's like a caveat to that. There's also a lot of people

say they want to do that more difficult in challenging work, but when confronted with it,

actually retreat and say, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm not comfortable to do this. This is a bit too

challenging to threatening. It's making me really uncomfortable. And so there are organizations,

there are leaders who have said one thing, right, and publicly made announcements about how

their anti-racist or their, you know, all about equity or whatever, but then that hasn't

necessarily followed through in the action. So that's something that we're dealing with now in the

field. In some places, there's an openness of recognition for some of those difficult topics.

In other places, it's really just on the surface. As soon as you go a little bit beneath the

surface, you realize that the commitment is really not there. Now you have me curious, so you've got

the, the company or the group that does go out on the golf course and make decisions or that

goes out for lunch and has martinis and make decisions. And there are reasons for it. The reasons

being that you're going away from the company, you're going away from the environment, and you can

think, and you can have all sorts of rationales or reasons for doing it, but nevertheless it happens,

how do we change that? How do we address that issue? Do we, when we have people who

were excluding because they don't go out on the golf course, do we create an environment for them

to be able to go on the golf course or do we do something different? Or are we there yet?

I think we're there. I think that first of all, we need to recognize that some of those informal

practices are in fact unfair. And then if you're wanting to let go of them and say, well,

what we liked about that was that it was somewhat informal, right? But are those the only informal

spaces you can create, right? Not necessarily. There are other ways that people can connect

informally in an organizational context that aren't around alcohol or aren't around a particular

sport or aren't around a particular activity that necessarily excludes or that are always

after hours. So this is something that women have really struggled with is that if those

important conversations side conversations are happening, not during work hours, and they're still

to this day, women have more responsibilities at home with family than men do. Then that's an

automatic disadvantage. You're not even in the room. You're not even there to be part of those

exchanges. That doesn't justify to women, but that's just an example. So how do we then think

about leadership differently, how we develop people, what our decision-making processes are,

how we hold each other accountable for those decisions. It kind of comes down to your organizational

values and how you live those values in the way in which you lead and the way in which you engage

in your work and your interactions with your colleagues. It's easy to say on paper, much harder to

practice those values. Why is that? Well, well, you know, everybody likes to have on their website

or on the wall in the conference room. Oh, we believe in integrity. We believe in inclusion, right?

We believe in collaboration or whatever the values may be. But what does that actually mean?

What does that look like? How do you Michael and how do I show up behave in accordance with those

values, right? That's a good question. It gets back to talk as cheap. Absolutely. Talk is really cheap.

Talk is really cheap. It's easy to make these pronouncements and to say the right thing.

It's much harder to practice them. And so when I engage with clients, it's really looking at

those organizations and those individuals that are interested in making some change. They're like,

okay, we know this is not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen because you did one

workshop with us and then we all went home. It's going to be, it's going to happen over time

by articulating behaviors. We want to practice building the skills to practice those behaviors,

building the accountability for us to actually implement those behaviors and those changes in our

policies. Then we could actually create some long-term change. That's not easy. It's not sexy.

It's hard work. And that's how you create a more diverse equitable and inclusive organization.

And it is very uncomfortable. And it's what really causes a lot of the hatred. So why is it that

people hate race differences so much? Because they're different than us. They're not as good as we are

and although in reality, they can demonstrate that they are as equal as we are, whoever we are,

the fact is that they're calling us on it, we don't like that. We don't like change. And the

reality is we need to learn to change. Yeah, this whole idea, you know, we all think of ourselves as

good people, right? So when someone points out some way in which I have excluded been exclusionary

or discriminatory in my behavior, my first instinct is to defend myself. But I'm a good person.

I would never try and hurt another discriminator exclude, but in fact, as a human being,

that operates in these systems that we are part of, I have it times excluded. I have it times

been unfair in the way I've treated people and been discriminatory. And so it's important for me

to be able to acknowledge that that I can be a good person. But part of being human is that I do have

some of these challenges. Then only can I change it and work to change some of the systems.

If we're going to live in denial, like, nope, we're good people. And therefore we can't hear any

of this criticism. There's not possible for me to be unfair on just or discriminatory.

Then how are we ever going to change? Right. Which is, which is, of course, the whole point, isn't it?

Yeah. But it's hard. It's a tough, I, I really, I'll go from back to humility in this work.

If you are to engage in a sincere way to build a more equitable and inclusive world for

everyone across identity groups, you will be humbled time and time again. It's hard because we

haven't learned to do it. And also, many of us just really, ultimately don't have the desire to

learn to do it. And that's what we have to change. Yeah. What are some of the major mistakes that

you've seen organizations make? I think you've referred to some of this already, but it's worth

exploring a little more. You know, one thing that we haven't talked about yet, but I often hear from

clients who seek out my services is that, oh, we really need to focus on recruitment. Right. We just

need to get more diverse leadership team. We need to do a better job of reaching out to, you know,

XYZ group that's underrepresented in our organization. And they put a lot of effort into recruitment.

And then what happens? You bring in people from all these different backgrounds that you said

weren't represented. And now they're there, but there hasn't been much emphasis on inclusion or

equity. And you've created a revolving door because very soon people from those marginalized identity

groups discover this isn't a place where they really feel like they're valued. Or it's not a

place that's set up to really support them, to be successful. And they leave. And then those same

organizations are like, well, we put all this money and time and effort into diversifying what

did we do wrong? So to that, what I say, time and time again is we have to start with equity and

inclusion. And then the diversity will come. You start with diversity and with recruitment.

And then just with wishful thinking, hope that it all works out once everybody's together in that

organization quite often it doesn't. It ultimately comes down to changing the mindset, which is

really what doesn't happen. And diversity doesn't change the mindset. And I think that's something

that conceptually inclusion can really help to do is to change the mindset. If you're really

going to look at what inclusion means, and that's why I've always loved to talk about it. I have

a speech called moving from diversity to inclusion because people clearly have already changed

diversity to the point where it doesn't necessarily represent everyone. But ultimately,

all those people I think still try to do it, you can't say you're inclusive unless you are.

You can talk about being partially inclusive, but that doesn't mean a thing, either you're

inclusive or you're not. And that means changing a mindset. It does mean changing a mindset. And that

mindset allows you to change some of your practices. It can be as simple as, like, how do you

design an agenda for a meeting and how do you facilitate that meeting? And how do you actually

include all of the voices of the people who are part of that group? A lot of just anything

about how many times people in organizations, how much time people spend in meetings. And a lot of

them are not particularly inclusive. Like half the people are checked out. There are a few people

who dominate the conversation, right? And it seems it's such a waste, right? It is such a waste

because there are ideas that are not getting shared. There are conversations that are not being

had. There are conflicts that are not getting resolved, right? Because we're just used to doing

things in the same way. If we can change that mindset, like you said, and and also some of the

practices, even small things like that will make a difference. People will start speaking up in a

different way. And we'll dialogue shifts. And that's what we really need to work toward is that

dialogue shift, that mindset change, and that makes a big difference in all that we're doing.

Tell me a little bit more about your company, but Muki. And what it does and how people can learn

about it. Great. So, yeah, Muki M-O-O-K-T-I consulting is my organization, as I mentioned earlier,

Muki means liberation. And I have two parts to my practice. One is organizational, training and

consulting. So, I provide and facilitate workshops and leadership development series for organizations

are all kinds of DEI-related topics from interrupting bias to feedback on microaggressions, to, you know,

leading with inequity lens and using the systems lens to solve problems in your organization.

And, and I really enjoy that work that organizational, training and consulting work. The other

part of my practice is coaching and that is one on one with individuals. Primarily, I focus on

women of color leaders because coaching remains a white dominant profession in the U.S. and there's

a real opportunity for people of color to enter this field and a lot of clientele who are looking

for coaches who understand not just their leadership journey, but also how their identities

impact them every day. So, being a woman and a woman of color in a leadership role in an organization

is different than being a man or being a white man in particular. And so, those one-on-one coaching

conversations that I have with my clients really can unlock their potential, can free them up,

to make decisions that are more aligned with their values and make choices in their career

that are more fulfilling for them. So, in all aspects of my work, I'm about, you know,

freeing people from the systems of oppression that limit us. Some of that work is organizational

and some of it is individual. If people want to reach out and contact you and explore working with

you and so on, how do they do that? Sure. So, my website is the best way to learn more about me

and my work and also to contact me. And the website is simply mucyconsulting.com.

Have you written any books or are there other places where people can get resources that you've

been involved in creating? Yes, I mean, I did write a book a number of years ago communicating

development across cultures, which is more focused on cross cultural communication in the

international development field. So, not as much on organizational DEI work as I'm doing now.

I'm quite active on LinkedIn and do post my own articles on LinkedIn. So, that's a good

place to find me as well. How can people find you? Can you, I assume, by your name, can you spell

all that for me? Yes, you put Shilpa in Shantani in LinkedIn. I'm the only one, so you'll find me

pretty easily with her. Why don't you spell that if you would please? Sure. So, Shilpa is

S-H-I-L-P-S-N-P-T-R-A, and Alim Shantani is A-L-I-M as a Mary, C-H-A-N as a Nancy, D as a

David, A-N-N-S-A-I. So, it's a long one, but a genetic name. In fact, on my website, I have a little

button where you can click pronounced, and it tells you how to pronounce audio clip of how

you say the word, Mook-D, and also how you say my name, Shilpa, Alim Shantani. Well, I hope people

will reach out, because I think you're, you're talking about a lot of very valuable things,

and I think we really need to look at inclusion and really create a new mindset. As I said,

I have a speech called moving from diversity inclusion in fact, it's the second episode on our podcast.

So, if you haven't watched, I hope you'll go see it. I know. There's my plug. And then my fourth

episode is a speech that Dr. Jacobus Timbrick gave. Dr. Timbrick was the founder of the National

Federation of the Blind, and one of the foremost constitutional law scholars. And the speech

he gave at the 1956 Convention of the National Federation of the Blind is called within the

grace of God. And especially the last two paragraphs of that speech, I love. But it's a great

speech that I think, whether you're talking about blindness or any other kind of group, it applies.

And he was definitely a visionary in the field, and was a, was a great thinker about it. So

that again, that's episode four. I hope that you and other people, if you haven't listened to it,

we'll go out and listen to you. You know, Michael, I did listen to that upon your recommendation

that episode four, and that speech was really moving and inspiring. And what I would say more

than anything else, I felt that it was empowering. It was so empowering. And thank you for

recommending that. And he thought that he was being gentle with people and talking about

discrimination and so on. And later years, he delivered another speech in 1967 called

are we up to the challenge? And he thought that he was much more forceful in that. He started the

speech by saying, and again, it's about blind people, but it goes across the board. It's that

blind people have the right to live in the world, which is interesting. But I still think his

1956 speeches was his best. And I think there are others who agree with that.

Well, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you, Michael. Thank you so much for inviting me

onto the podcast. Well, I am glad that you came, and I hope that you will come back again,

and definitely any time you have more insights or whatever, there is any way that we can be a

resource for you. And I'm sure others will feel the same way. Please let us know. But

should I really appreciate you coming on? And all of you, I appreciate you listening today. So

we hope that you'll give us a five star rating and that you will reach out. Let me know what you

think of what we had to discuss. I'd love your thoughts. All of the information will be in our

show notes, including how to spell Shilpa's name. And we hope that you will let us know your thoughts.

So once more, Shilpa, thank you for listening. Well, you listen, too. Thank you for being here.

Thanks, Michael. Thank you all, and we'll see you next time on a stop-able mindset.

Thank you all, and we'll see you next time on a stop-able mindset.